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Putting a design quest to you lot ! VTOL

Old 12-26-2013, 11:27 PM
  #1  
solentlife
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Default Putting a design quest to you lot ! VTOL

OK ... I have some ideas ... but interested how you lot would attack this from a scratchbuild point.

My vision is a standard light trainer with 3 small props in short shrouds. One out in extremity of each wings span giving lateral and main weight lift, third further back to balance the model.

The two wing units could rotate 90 degrees to give full back thrust and proportional thrust through 90 degrees to vertically down. The rear unit being throttled to balance the two forward ... once full forward flight - the rear unit stops.

Or a forward standard prop with the 3 vertical units, both systems throttled to perform their functions.

OK - over to you lot ... any ideas ?

Remember this is a scratchbuild not a "buy it" solution thread.

Nigel
(Yes I'm bored !)
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:11 AM
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CHELLIE
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Here you go Nigel Click on the Video in the Link.

http://www.yellow-bl.de/flightsystems.html

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Old 12-27-2013, 12:27 AM
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CHELLIE
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No Need to Tilt the wing, thats just more of a Hassle, just tilt the motors.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:55 AM
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dgjessing
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Here you go Nigel Click on the Video in the Link.
Cool!
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:12 AM
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The 'VTOL' part would be very easy to do using a tricopter set up (fixed lifting rotors on wings and pivoting tail rotor for yaw control). Pitch and roll would be accomplished in the normal multi rotor fashion by varying power to each motor and 'tilting' the entire plane rather than pivoting the motors. This could be done with a cheap KK2 controller and off the shelf multi rotor parts.

The problem there would be that the rotors would be fixed in the lifting position so could not be used for forward propulsion, which is a big problem.

The challenge with the tilting rotor idea is stabilisation, I think that it would be just about un-flyable without some form of artificial stability and I don't know of any off the shelf controller that would do tilt rotor. It would be interesting to find out how it was done in the video, that looked very stable, they only mention one gyro.
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:00 AM
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hayofstacks
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take a high lift and slow flying model like a slow stick. mount two counter rotating motors on the tail, then two large motors on the wing. run the standard motor. this way you could fly it like a regular plane, but take off and hover vertically. it would also greatly lessen the load during forwards travel and using the stock front motor for forwards thrust will take some complications out of the equation.

id also counter rotate the four motors to help with stability. and if the model ends up a bit heavy, you could add thrust to help maintain altitude.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:28 AM
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DHC Beaver
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Interesting idea,but I think it's all been done before.I remember an english fellow building a Harrier using 4 directional fans donkeys years ago,and believe he did fly it in conventional flight.The vto apparently required a huge amount of extra power to transition from hover to forward flight.I would imagine you would also need some gyros to aid stability.
The model shown by Chellie has some similarities to the Osprey,but that had huge props,and no tail power unit.
I have an interest in oddball aircraft,so I'll be watching with interest.
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:00 AM
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hayofstacks
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id use a slow stick. I really think its the way to go.

throw two 480 sized motors on each wing with 55oz of thrust each with an 11" prop should easily lift it. tail motors add stability for the tail only. if you added the motors at cg and ran a large battery upfront it would be really simple.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:33 AM
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solentlife
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
No Need to Tilt the wing, thats just more of a Hassle, just tilt the motors.
No the wing is fixed ... it's the thrust units that tilt.

I would be wary of just 2 motor units as then you have no control over pitch in any air movement.

I'm leaning towards 3 small units, 1 at each wing outer section and 3rd at tail ... fixed and a tractor prop up front.

Lift .. then throttle in the tractor prop ... as she gains flight speed slow to stop the lift system. Simple and without need to rotate or hinge anything.

Nigel
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:22 AM
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JetPlaneFlyer
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I'm leaning towards 3 small units, 1 at each wing outer section and 3rd at tail ... fixed and a tractor prop up front.

Lift .. then throttle in the tractor prop ... as she gains flight speed slow to stop the lift system. Simple and without need to rotate or hinge anything.

Nigel
Nigel, in that case a tricopter set up is the way to go. The two wing tip motors would be fixed, they could be put in shrouds set into the wing to minimise drag in forward flight. The tail rotor pivots to provide yaw control.

This is standard tricopter arrangement, tried and tested, and flight controllers are readily available and cheap (Hobbyking KK2 for instance) with pre-configured settings for tricopter.

This is my tricopter flying in 15-20mph winds:
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:31 PM
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solentlife
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Hi JPF ... yep that's the idea ... but it contravenes the Scratchbuild intention as put in OP ... not out of box solution.

But definitely on the right track.

OK ... so shall we agree some 'ground rules' ? To try and keep in the scratchbuild arena ..

No formal out of box model. This includes a frame / motor / controller set-up termed BnF .. PnF.
Separate parts to combine into an own designed VTOL / flight system is encouraged.
Final model is a scratchbuild from plans or own design, designed or modified to have VTOL built in and incorporated into structure.

Nigel
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Old 12-27-2013, 02:04 PM
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JetPlaneFlyer
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Nigel,

I wasn't advocating any sort of 'out of the box' solution. My suggestion was purely to use proven multi-rotor principals and electronic flight controller, and maybe a tri-rotor pivoting tail rotor mechanism. Obviously the actual airframe would be scratch build and ESCs motors etc selected to suit.

If you aren't up for using off the shelf electronics then this project is going to be a big challenge when it comes to motor, ESC, receiver and servos, let alone flight stability controllers

Steve

PS and FWIW the tri-copter in the video was built from separate 'loose' components, and is not a RTF / PNP / BNF or anything of the sort. It did use a proprietary tri-rotor frame but some do build their own frames.

Last edited by JetPlaneFlyer; 12-27-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:13 PM
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solentlife
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OK .. sorry JPF ...

Bit of a misunderstanding there. I agree that full own scratchbuild is going to be difficult, but I was trying to avoid a out of box frame and then a sort of plane config bolted on ! I think you saw that in my meaning.

I agree that control and set-up is going to lean very heavily on such as the tri-copter means to 'get of the ground' ( ) ...

One factor that is going to affect how it's done is the weight lifting capability of the lift rotors. A standard tri-copter is unlikely to be able to lift a 600 - 800gr addition to it. So the idea will need to be refined and upgraded to allow decent power levels to achieve the lift.

Nigel
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:15 PM
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solentlife
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Can you imagine the possibilities though ?

Instead of pure multi-rotor or pure fixed wing .. a combo of the two and flyable in a small back garden.

Nigel
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:06 PM
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solentlife
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So guess what ..............

Some b******* appears to have nicked my idea !

http://www.comquestventures.com/

I knew I should have patented it ... too bl**** late now !

Nigel
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Old 03-17-2015, 03:10 AM
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Bill G
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The general arrangement Chellie showed has been done a number of times. The ducted tail rotor is interesting also.

The Focke Wulf VTOL is the one I keep considering. It probably wouldn't be terribly difficult to have the subject hover if balanced, using a counter-rotating setup, but the remainder of the control scheme would be interesting. Small motors with pusher props could be used for the exhaust thrust, but to maintain relatively constant height, the main throttle would have to work independently. I could envision pushing forward on the right hand stick (mode 2) for forward motion. The remainder of the controls with gyros, etc, would be interesting.

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Old 03-17-2015, 04:54 AM
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solentlife
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My original idea was a multi-rotor, ie Quad, with addition of normal prop and wing / tail plane. The quad rotors contained within the wing / tail areas.
Hovering etc. achieved by the quad system ... transition and forward flight by throttling in the normal prop. As forward speed increases - the quad rotors can slow down as the wing is providing the lift. No need for tilt rotors etc.

I may get around to it one day ....

Nigel
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Old 03-17-2015, 09:47 PM
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Nigel, I just saw this interesting video from Flite Test. Maybe something like what you're thinking of? Sounds like it needs some geek skills to get the gyro's and controller boards working. (No offense meant to the geeks of the world! All respect, as we would have none of our toys without them!)

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf7iNRdn4EI[/media]

Also, here's a website with some interesting designs from a gentleman who was a member of our club for a while. A very smart man who was an engineer at Boeing. I especially like the Cargo VTOL UAV, which you can see by clicking on the link in the right of the web page.

LAPCAD.com
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Old 03-21-2015, 04:17 PM
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Nigel:
I have explored VTOL's for the past 5 years. The biggest problem without using the computer boards(KK2) is presently there are no gyros that are synced with motors. They are synced with servos, so controlling speed to hover is almost impossible. I tried a rotating wing on a transport and unless you have vernier control of the motor, it is a failure. How about ground effects?
So unless you can figure how to handle the three axis(roll,pitch,yaw) whether it is vertical or horizontal, the boards are the only way. With a kk2 board, you can control acceleration and gyro action.
I am still messing around with that. Oh well, I have a transport with a servo driven wing that I fly as a STOL plane. It is still cool to see it fly with the wing elevated about 15-20 up.

I have not given up, have 2 unique designs built that I will try in spring.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xsQkWbFOEY
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:23 PM
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solentlife
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As a Heli flyer from the 1980's as well as now - I am well and truly sure that a board is needed to provide rotor control.

I wouldn't remove board control at all ....

The basic idea of mine is to combine the vertical capability of a multi - building it into the wing / tail surfaces of the model. Add level flight thrust from conventional prop and we have the two worlds. Height can be controlled by rotor thrust and roll / pitch control as usual but this time coupled to the rotor controls.

Nigel
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Old 03-22-2015, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
As a Heli flyer from the 1980's as well as now - I am well and truly sure that a board is needed to provide rotor control.

I wouldn't remove board control at all ....

The basic idea of mine is to combine the vertical capability of a multi - building it into the wing / tail surfaces of the model. Add level flight thrust from conventional prop and we have the two worlds. Height can be controlled by rotor thrust and roll / pitch control as usual but this time coupled to the rotor controls.

Nigel
Our first heli was a "Cricket". Was able to loop and roll(actually barrel roll) it without gyros(since there wasn't any developed). Have Excell's and Competitor in the celler still. What was yours?
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Old 03-22-2015, 03:23 PM
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solentlife
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Originally Posted by pcm10xmode View Post
Our first heli was a "Cricket". Was able to loop and roll(actually barrel roll) it without gyros(since there wasn't any developed). Have Excell's and Competitor in the celler still. What was yours?
My first heli was an Irvine 20 glow job ..



To be honest its actual Model name escapes me after all these years !

Nigel
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Old 03-30-2015, 02:11 PM
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Had what I think was the Cricket or grasshopper something like that, back around 1971. Had a Super Tigre 35 with a conventional prop mounted on top of the rotor blades and the torque reaction from the motor turned the blades in the opposite direction. Blades were floating on a hinge and had a weight on the ends so, as it revved up the centrifugal force would make the blades go to a higher pitch with speed. Didn't last long as there were no gyros back then, and lack of experience.

Gord.
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Old 03-30-2015, 08:35 PM
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hayofstacks
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Hmm, i wonder about a gyro copter with a tricopter arrangement added for stability.

Would fly similar to a regular plane in forwards flight, and with enough motor be capable of hovering as well as vtol.
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